Quote from Idolon on July 12, 2017, 8:34 pm

The puzzles are alright. I'll talk about each in separate paragraphs so this post doesn't look too massive.

The first puzzle has a neat premise, but it falls short in some of the way its assembled and also the execution. The faith plate's positioning is awkward because of how easy it is to step on by accident (I actually died within about 5 seconds of walking into the chamber the first time) (also you'll note that all Valve maps with faith plates have lots of floor surrounding the plate so stepping on it is never an accident) and also because of how awkwardly close you get to it [spoiler]when flinging back to the platform[/spoiler]. I think you could solve these issues by making the starting platform larger, moving the faith plate back, and even adding a [spoiler]lower second ledge the player lands on when flinging back, guaranteeing that they don't slide into the faith plate[/spoiler]. I also had an instance where [spoiler]I was flinging back to the faith plate platform and I didn't actually make the jump[/spoiler]. You also have to repeat the same step several times, which gets annoying when that step is actually multiple steps in a row. It gets time consuming, especially when you mess something up and need to do it even more times than the puzzle requires at a minimum

The second puzzle I've not actually solved yet. I did find an unintentional solution where [spoiler]if you align the portals on the floor in the main chamber just right so that the laser is as close as it can get to the lower of the two lifts, you can hold a laser cube in the laser to summon the second lift, and then run/jump backwards and catch the second lift as it goes up[/spoiler]. The second puzzle also feels like you just got lazy with the antlines, which is sometimes excusable but it did throw me off because the second dropper didn't seem to have anything to drop with (until I did some investigation). Also, the angled fling panel makes for a pretty awkward jump because of how low the ceiling is.

The detailing rides right on the line between too detailed and just right. Pretty much every spot in the chamber has some detail in it (which isn't necessary - leaving an area blank can indicate to the player that they don't need to look there, even if they don't actually notice there's hardly any detail), but at the same time nothing really gets too busy. The detailing never gets in the way of my ability to solve the puzzle except for one instance where this appears like it might be a portalable surface. My main complaint is [spoiler]the out of bounds areas feel oddly pristine in comparison to the chambers[/spoiler].

Misc. nitpicks: I had this complaint with Shift-Tab as well, where this floor doesn't quite look like it should be able to support itself. Typically map entrances only have one door, and the lightboard comes either before or after it. This map has doors on either side of the lightboard, which feels off (I'm guessing this is to hide the projectedtexture limitation, but I don't think the lighboard room would be missing much without the sharp shadows).

I'll be giving the second puzzle another shot sometime soon.

Quote from Dafflewoctor on July 13, 2017, 5:10 pm

Hey Idolon, thank you very much for the detailed feedback! It isn't very common in the Portal 2 workshop these days. I've noted here some of the things I may change and some things I disagree with.

Idolon wrote:

The faith plate's positioning is awkward because of how easy it is to step on by accident (I actually died within about 5 seconds of walking into the chamber the first time) (also you'll note that all Valve maps with faith plates have lots of floor surrounding the plate so stepping on it is never an accident) and also because of how awkwardly close you get to it [spoiler]when flinging back to the platform[/spoiler]. I think you could solve these issues by making the starting platform larger, moving the faith plate back, and even adding a [spoiler]lower second ledge the player lands on when flinging back, guaranteeing that they don't slide into the faith plate[/spoiler].

I did run into this issue some when playtesting. A half-solution I found to flinging right back into the faith plate was changing the air control suppression time value in the trigger_catapult so that, even if the player does hit the plate, they don't accidentally miss the portal on the way back and die, allowing them as many attempts as they need to strafe out of the way of the plate. I could see about editing some geometry and highlighting the plate more clearly, depending on how it feels aesthetically.

Idolon wrote:

I also had an instance where [spoiler]I was flinging back to the faith plate platform and I didn't actually make the jump[/spoiler].

Hm, are you sure you didn't jump off of the first piston platform before it reached full height, preventing you from gaining the momentum you need to cross the gap? I've tested this jump many times, and even without jumping (just falling straight into the portal) I've always reached the starting platform with at least ~96 units of clearance.

Idolon wrote:

The second puzzle I've not actually solved yet. I did find an unintentional solution where [spoiler]if you align the portals on the floor in the main chamber just right so that the laser is as close as it can get to the lower of the two lifts, you can hold a laser cube in the laser to summon the second lift, and then run/jump backwards and catch the second lift as it goes up[/spoiler].

After some trial and error I was able to recreate this. And I thought I had eliminated any unintended solutions! Should be able to fix this by increasing the speed of the pistons.

Idolon wrote:

The second puzzle also feels like you just got lazy with the antlines, which is sometimes excusable but it did throw me off because the second dropper didn't seem to have anything to drop with (until I did some investigation). Also, the angled fling panel makes for a pretty awkward jump because of how low the ceiling is.

Not using antlines for the catchers was actually a design choice. The floor of the chamber already has so much destruction and detail that I think it would actually confuse the player when trying to locate the origins and receptors of each antline. In addition, I really appreciate the clean look of josepezdj's signage, and I think it's fairly easy to understand when the player finds the signage next to the pistons. As for the second dropper, I don't necessarily see an issue if the connection is not explicitly stated at first, when the player is rewarded with this information for exploring some more [spoiler](making the fling jump to the button platform).[/spoiler]

Idolon wrote:

Pretty much every spot in the chamber has some detail in it (which isn't necessary - leaving an area blank can indicate to the player that they don't need to look there, even if they don't actually notice there's hardly any detail)

I agree with you from a gameplay perspective, and even more so when it comes to fast-paced games like TF2. However, my goal with this map, alongside the goal of creating a set of fun puzzles, was creating the most carefully considered map I could in terms of detail, layout, and atmosphere. Maybe that's a poor way to phrase that goal, since I don't think it's something I will ever fully achieve to my satisfaction; in other words, it was a personal exercise in environment design. So, if the detailing is at a place where it never obstructs the player's ability to solve the puzzle, while consistently remaining between the lines of "too much" and "just right", I think I've succeeded in both gameplay and aesthetics categories.

Idolon wrote:

The detailing never gets in the way of my ability to solve the puzzle except for one instance where this appears like it might be a portalable surface. My main complaint is [spoiler]the out of bounds areas feel oddly pristine in comparison to the chambers[/spoiler].

I can just flip that prop around, since the other side doesn't have that misleading white surface. As for the bts areas, it definitely would have been more realistic to give it a more destroyed appearance, but I am still satisfied with the way it looks now.

Idolon wrote:

Misc. nitpicks: I had this complaint with Shift-Tab as well, where this floor doesn't quite look like it should be able to support itself. Typically map entrances only have one door, and the lightboard comes either before or after it. This map has doors on either side of the lightboard, which feels off (I'm guessing this is to hide the projectedtexture limitation, but I don't think the lighboard room would be missing much without the sharp shadows).

I could add some truss props under the floor, or maybe just increase the ratio of solid floor space to square beams. For the entry room, I wouldn't agree that there is any standard to be followed (the official PTI entrances all have two doors, for example). It's more a matter of personal preference.

I do encourage you to try the second puzzle again! I think it lacks the element of tedium you mentioned in the first puzzle, and has a specific "aha!" moment that requires some unconventional thinking. If you want any help, you can choose to look at these hints: [spoiler]The spawn location of each cube is important, hence the rusted and non-rusted skins.[/spoiler] [spoiler]You will also need to utilize momentum more than just the angled panel fling and the fling to the button platform.[/spoiler] Thanks again for the feedback!

Quote from quaternary on July 14, 2017, 9:01 am

Oh - for me the [spoiler]spawn locations of the cubes did not matter,[/spoiler] although I still felt like I solved the puzzle correctly (nothing "felt" unintended)

Not at home right now so here's a summary of my solution

Hmmmmm
[spoiler]* spawn the dirty cube, put it on the button amd aim it at laser catcher "#1"
* ride the lift up with the laser, and fling across
* fling up to spawn the clean cube, place the cube on the ledge pointing at laser catcher "#2". I'm not gonna touch it for the rest of the puzzle
* now I want to get a portal connection across the fizzler, so I ride the lift back up and aim the laser at the clean cube
* the fizzler opens and I shoot a blue portal on the little floor panel
* now I take the dirty cube off of the button, and put it on the end of the laser pointing at laser node "#1"
* stand on the lift and drop the cube through an orange portal to go up
* fling up through the orange portal, grab the dirty cube on the way up and put the cube on the exit door button
* fling down through the blue portal and land at the top of the lift
* shoot the laser at the clean cube - it looks impossible but the portal placement helper will flip your portal (failing that you could floor-fling and flip your portal upside down like that
* Youre Winner![/spoiler]

Nowhere in there did I have to [spoiler]respawn a cube, and I could have switched them at any point[/spoiler]

Quote from Dafflewoctor on July 14, 2017, 12:10 pm

Thanks quaternary, I can confirm that is not the intended solution. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to patch it that wouldn't require some massive reworkings or unconventional mechanics that would just serve to confuse players. I'll have to think about it some more but I'll be patching Idolon's unintended solution in the meantime.

The intended solution, if you're curious. I may upload a .DEM file as well since this is probably poorly worded.

[spoiler]once you place the clean cube on the ledge so that it is pointed towards catcher #2, place the dirty cube under laser facing catcher #1 as you said, riding the lift up and opening the fizzler. However, after placing a portal on the floor surface on the other side of the fizzler, swap the cubes such that the dirty cube takes place of the clean cube pointing towards catcher #2. Now, returning the clean cube to the bottom of the chamber through your portal, ride up on piston #1 once more using the clean cube instead of the dirty cube, opening the fizzler. This time, place a portal on the surface behind the fizzler, a portal in front of you, and jump to the pedestal button platform using momentum. Place a portal under the second cube dropper (make sure it's not the portal you currently have on the white surface at the bottom of the chamber!) Then, press the cube respawn button and watch as the cube falls through the portal, and while it is in the air on the other side, swap the portal that is NOT the one the bottom of the chamber to the surface in front of the pedestal platform. The cube will fly back through with enough height for you to grab it. Place it on the button, and fly back through your portal to the first piston platform. Use portals to aim the laser at the dirty cube, which is still sitting on the ledge, and bring down the second platform. Get on the platform, and place a portal anywhere to move yourself up to the open door.[/spoiler]