on the topic of re-releasing maps I just had this idea.

rather than have a single rated element in the downloads section, each released map in the release thread for it having a poll for each of the rating catagories previously described by I think msleeper.

Make the [release] post owned by an admin, accompanied by a release number

[poll][release] mymap r3

poll options will cover 1-5 on all of the catagories, the poll never ends.

the poll totals are averaged, and thats the score on each catagory for the map.

Now the reason for re-releasing, is to improve our maps, if it scores too low, it should have stayed a [wip], but that shouldn't keep the maker from improving it. (Perhaps a [poll] in the wip forum, on wether the map is ready to be rated]

Once a map is reworked to attempt to improve scores, the previous thread is deleted, and a new poll is made.

once a map has a minimum rating in all required categories, it is added to the "Best of TWP" map pack, which is an evolving single click download for people looking for great portal maps. Also this may make it easier to update maps easily, for instance, if you have several beta maps in your folder (like I do) but dont know which are beta, you could download this archive and it would override all maps with the latest version.

I thought of this because I think a TWP map pack would be a great way for us to share our maps. But in order to do something like that there has to be quality control so you would need at least a 4/5 in all categories, and be relatively bug free.

other requirements:
the map has to have a clear start and end
maps must have lighting (no fullbright)
all texture must work
[insert more obvious things here]

anyways, tell me what you think

tl;dr

At some point I am going to severly modify the download database to have multiple areas of ranking, such as Difficulty, Design, etc.

what does tl;dr mean? lol

basically I come from working in 3dsmax...

and some people might agree that there is always something that can be improved.

the sense that "releasing" a map writes it in stone kinda turns me away from releasing lol

also I find clicking a million links to download released and wip maps tedious, and find it would be nice to have a [release] and [wip] compilation download, [release] being a best of twp.

Only downside is someone would have to regularly repack and upload the newest compilation pack.

but a [release] pack, all maps having a minimum rating, might help in drawing more people to play the maps, as they would only need to extract 1 file, rather than 10+ or however many.

Also, I find the download page littered with things like Button and Door Tutorial and Ball_launcher_example, which are great, but aren't really maps they're more of a tutoral.

just trying to come up with ideas to make the map distribution easier and less tedious.

tl;dr means "too long to read".

Too long, didn't read.

mm thats a great way to making things better

I think in this case it means "that looks way more complicated than it needs to be".

maybe its long because I rambled so here's what I said.

-vote on wip maps in order to release them
-released maps have a moderater run poll on all the rating criteria
-maps with a minimum score in all criteria are added to a "best of TWP" map pack
-maps can be re-released in order to improve the map, if the map is still a wip, it must show enough improvement in order to do this
-re-released maps that have undergone significant changes have their original poll deleted, and a new one started to allow a new rating (once again all polls are run by moderators)
-maps in the "best of TWP" map pack can update their map without changing the voting to tweak minor things, and such updates would be included in the next release of the "map pack"

-optionally a WIP mappack to make it easier to load and test peoples wip without clicking and extracting for each one

I think thats a little more coherient :S

Artesia wrote:
-vote on wip maps in order to release them

I think the biggest issue I could see with that is that it would discourage people who are not an active part of this community from releasing their maps in the download database. Not everyone who has a map in the Release section developed their map with an active presence on the WIP board, and I think it's fine like that. WIP should be a helpful tool for the community, not a requirement for everyone.

Artesia wrote:
-maps can be re-released in order to improve the map, if the map is still a wip, it must show enough improvement in order to do this

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by re-releasing a WIP map. If it's a work-in-progress, I think it's implied that the author will be making continual updates to it. Is an update a "re-release"? If so, I think that's entirely up to the author and not anyone else.

Other than those objections, the rest seems like it has some good ideas in it, but as the majority of it directly involves increasing the workload of the moderators, I'll leave it to them to respond.

issue 1)

that is true, the main idea here is to have a "best of TWP" map pack. So I guess that one isn't necessary, I just thought of it as an idea to keep people from releasing things that are clearly still wip, ive seen a couple.

perhaps this could only be a requirement if the author wants to be in the map pack. if they came from another site, another option could be added to the poll to "work on it more first" or something

issue 2) re-releasing mainly applies to maps people think are finished, (I still say that everything can be improved even if its unnoticable). a re-release is bigger than an update and has to be asked for. If the map got a lower score than you hoped, this allows you to work on it and try to improve the map. Once a map is "released" it is rated, if it gets a score of 1/5 in every category, it can be "re-released". Obviously a 1/5 map should still be a wip, but it was released already. re-releasing allows you to go back and fix stuff.

now in order to release a map for voting, either a poll, or a moderator playing it, should occur. Since the poll is moderator run, this is just so people dont release their map every 20 minutes for voting.

Each release is treated like a final version, but re-releasing allows continued work until the author, and the community are happy with it

I'm still kinda unclear about what exactly this would accomplish. It seems like you're trying to do two or three things at once:
- Compile regular "best of" map packs
- Provide a lot more feedback from testers to mappers (multiple nested polls, etc)
- Enable revised versions of previous maps to be released with less confusion.

Yes? At least these three things, and maybe some others. All laudable goals, but you really haven't explained how they fit together or what the priority should be among them. My point is that it's confusing, and it would probably be a lot less confusing if we tackled these separate problems, er, separately.

The other thing that concerns me about your idea is I think it involves the whole community in making decisions about what's best for a map, kind of regardless of what the mapper himself thinks, and it also (if I understand correctly) gives them the means to enforce their opinions by voting whether to include or exclude a map from the "best of" packs.

I think that would lead to a lot of bad "design by committee" decisionmaking. Perfect example: Shmitz's map Accident Prone. There was a pretty big split between people who loved the map, including the new "tetherball" element, and those that couldn't figure out the tetherball or just hated it because it wasn't in the official Portal levels. I fear that if Accident Prone had been put through this process, Shmitz might have been pressured into nerfing or removing that puzzle. That would be a shame.

The best maps (not just the winner) from each month's mapping contest will be packaged into a monthly map pack.

This may be what you're looking for in the "best of" idea.

As for attempting to weed out WIPs that aren't ready for release, well, there's no easy way to do that given the current framework. The best way is to have each release have its own thread (done) and have people comment on the map after they play it (usually done) and for a potential downloader to skim the thread and look for stuff like "Why does the invisible zombie keep killing me" to know if its a good map or not.

Essentially, this place is at a spot in the spectrum, the two ends of which I'll label Slashdot and Digg. Slashdot is moderated and only the select few items the moderators pick from the hundreds they wade through get posted. With Digg, everything gets posted, and some of the popular stuff ends up being on the front page.

This forum tends towards the Digg side, because it has the requisite self-moderation necessary. I think the system works okay as it is.

well the re-releasing idea is mainly for those who want to make a really good map, but are new to hammer, and will work at it until it is good. they can keep it in the wip, but the feedback isn't concrete. when they think its ready they can release it, but what if they want to go back and make it better?

rating requirements are only for the map pack, if all the users vote, no ones strange opinion would hold sway and shift the votes their way. All maps should be rated imo. But I do think that people should be able to take these ratings in hand to go back and fix what people thought were the shortfalls of the map, a rating shouldn't be final if the author wants to improve the map. an improved map, is improved content for everyone.

as to the wip being voted on before released... its more like, does the map have a clear beginning and end? are there bugs or errors everywhere? does the map have lighting? all this 'should' be entertained in the wip area, so if they weren't, and the map is "released" it will either

A) fail in ratings
or
B) be played by other people before release who can tell him if he needs to work on it more or not...

its mainly for the maps that spring from nowhere, its just an idea I had, im not a disciple for it or anything... in fact it would affect me more than most since I rarely release beta versions

As long as all publicized maps (released and wip as well) have working BNS files I'm happy.

Have anybody had any luck in reverse engineering the BSZ (Bonus Map Zip) file format so that map installation could become even easier?

Look for SSkillz bonus map pack in the releases section, it's an Epic release.

Player1 wrote:
Have anybody had any luck in reverse engineering the BSZ (Bonus Map Zip) file format so that map installation could become even easier?

Read the sticky about it.

Okay, finally waded through this huge thread. My responses aren't to anything specific, and I'm not singling anyone out.

As Shmitz, Hober, and Paul have said, I dislike the idea of having the community vote on everything, from which maps should go in a Best-Of pack, to what WIP maps can become a full RELEASE. As a very long time mapper, I know that trying to go the socialist way of allowing everyone to have an equal say in stuff, especially reguarding someone's work, is a bad move. Say I am making a map, and I feel that I have completed it and it is done, then that is that. If I want to release it as a WIP for people to pick apart and give suggestions, I am going to do that. if I wantto release it as a RELEASE, then I'm going to do that too.

Artesia, I understand your point of view of thinking that things can always be improved upon, and labeling something as a Release does etch it in stone is a bit daunting, but that really is the whole point and purpose -of- releasing something. Looking back at Source Chariots, there are lots of things I wish I could fix up, and if I wanted to I could, but I'm not going to. Granted part of this is my personal opinion, but the point is that if you don't ever feel comfortable making any of your maps an official RELEASE, then don't. It's your choice.

As for the Download Database, I am only human and the only PHP programmer in me and f0rkz little circle owning these websites. The software is also EXTREMELY hard to try and modify, but trust me when I say that I really really want to, and I may wind up making my own software at some point. I chose the software because it integrated with phpBB, and that was really important to me so that all of our already registered users could upload their maps. Eventually the Download DB will be more extensive, and provide more information, and be easier to search, and so on. Until then, give it some time since I only have some much of it to work with.

Quote:
Also, I find the download page littered with things like Button and Door Tutorial and Ball_launcher_example, which are great, but aren't really maps they're more of a tutoral.

As a side note about that, I plan on making a subcategory for Tutorial maps, since I have gotten that complaint from a few other people also. Keep an eye out on the Download DB for the changes.

While I am at it, I might make a "Featured Maps" or a "Community Spotlight" subcategory with the Best of the Best maps, so that people can find the top-rated maps easier and faster, as well as contest winners, and so on.

as I said im not attached to any of these ideas, in fact I'm fine with the way things are. I was just proposing things to stir discussion. As with all brainstorms, some ideas might be good, but some also might be bad. I was just throwing things out there

msleeper wrote:
I know that trying to go the socialist way of allowing everyone to have an equal say in stuff

Uhm that's got nothing to do with socialism... Anyways kinda drifting off-topic...

msleeper wrote:
Read the sticky about it.

Whut which one? There's a sticky about the BNS scripts, but I couldn't find anything about BSZ...