efari wrote:
shad0w440 wrote:

Example:
Video Here
It was my first map :p

oh please, don't make me laugh
watch as i "solve" this :p
Another Video Here
i actually feel guilty about this
you put all that efford in such a big map, for me not to ever use it..

this is what we need to prevent!

Good thing about workshop is you can always go in and tweak things

I think there's a huge difference between alternate solutions and unintended solutions. An alternate solution - that is, a puzzle with multiple ways of solving it while still preserving the integrity of the puzzle itself - really is fine. It's also pretty uncommon for this to be the case, but if a puzzle is designed in a way that there's no one right way to complete it then cool.

Unintended solutions, on the other hand, are definitely an issue of playtesting or designing the puzzle. I think the litmus test for this is asking yourself, "did I skip something". If you can skip a whole section of a puzzle, or the entire puzzle itself, to me that's an unintended solution and something that should be plugged.

A great example is chamber 14 in Portal 1. I consider this to be an unintended solution since you completely bypass the entire chamber. I apologize in advance for the abysmal quality of the video.

mSvrp_bQ7Bc

Well at least in portal they knew that you could do that and the challenge maps put it into account that you could do it in 8 steps/2portals/so many seconds.

Yeah but I'm sure that came about after the puzzle was designed. That's the most immediate example I could think of, I know there are others similar, especially in some custom maps.

The thing is, that map could have easily been fixed if they didn't put a portable surface on the floor there.

People, learn from their mistakes!

Yeah that too. That exploit could be fixed in less time than it takes to read this sentence.

lpfreaky90 wrote:
While theoretically there?s nothing wrong with multiple solutions most of them completely skip a part of your level.
Also sometimes an alternative solution allows a much simpler solution instead of the clever trick you designed.

These two cases are the things that I try to prevent as much as I can.

I'd add in a third, which is when there's an alternative solution that's either as or more obvious than the one you thought of but which is a chore to perform or relies on luck. I've had feedback in the past that 'the way to get x cube is just luck-based' or 'y fling is really tricky to pull off' when in actual fact it's just that people are doing it in a way I hadn't thought of. Now, to someone who knows my way that might seem like a reasonable alternative solution, but to someone who doesn't it's just a badly-designed map they're gonna rate down and never come back to.

Always ask soem1 you know to test your maps.

Cutting corners... what i should do before publishing my first map.
I was so used to solve it "correctly" that i didn't cosider that some1 would have solved it in other ways, which appaired right to some1 that didn't know the "proper" solution.
Luckly i had my map tested by a friend so i manged to solve the unintended solution the following day

El Farmerino wrote:
I'd add in a third, which is when there's an alternative solution that's either as or more obvious than the one you thought of but which is a chore to perform or relies on luck. I've had feedback in the past that 'the way to get x cube is just luck-based' or 'y fling is really tricky to pull off' when in actual fact it's just that people are doing it in a way I hadn't thought of.

Yes, that's a very good point! I've had that happen with my maps on multiple occasions, especially with timed things. Some player thinks of a different approach where the allotted time is just barely enough to do it, and then complain that I'm requiring Nintendo skills

About luck-based alternatives: the final part of Manic Mechanic has a particularly nasty case of that. If you cross-wire the switches, it usually doesn't work, but there's a small chance (depending on the randomness of the physics) that it does, so for some players it looked like this was the way it was supposed to work. It was pretty frustrating that I couldn't find a way to prevent that without trivialising the whole puzzle.

(And yes, nowadays I ask a limited number of people to test it before releasing even a W.I.P. version.)

Heh. After doing my first map, which was horrendously horrendous (there were just 2 portalable surfaces... kinda takes the fun out of Portal), I always made sure that I don't solve the puzzle as I intended it to do.

I try to break it. Everytime that double door opens after pressing F9, I go like, "Hmm, so how can I exploit this thing?"

It sure as hell helps, that simple question.

Funny story. One of the puzzle elements I had was a laser emitter on the ceiling firing to a non-portalable floor below it, and a laser catcher at the wall adjacent to it. My intended solution was a reflector cube passing through two portals that end up at the catcher. I was dissapointed when I found out I could do it with just the portal.

P.S. Is there a post count before avatars and sigs are enabled?
P.P.S. I think high-energy pellets should be on the PTI as well.
P.P.P.S. I registered here cuz I saw the thread about PTI maps, is it stickied? It would be fantastic if it was.

Aicxe wrote:
P.S. Is there a post count before avatars and sigs are enabled?
P.P.S. I think high-energy pellets should be on the PTI as well.
P.P.P.S. I registered here cuz I saw the thread about PTI maps, is it stickied? It would be fantastic if it was.

No. It's in the UCP.

Plasma balls are removed from Portal 2. You can add them back in mostly using some material hacks though. Look in the "Other" section in the download database, someone uploaded the files you need.

There is a "pimp your puzzle creator map" sticky in the Release board. There is a "show off your WIP puzzle creator map" sticky in this board. You can also just publish your map like normal through the Download Database; there are super stickies on how to do this in the Release board if you don't know how.

msleeper wrote:
A great example is chamber 14 in Portal 1. I consider this to be an unintended solution since you completely bypass the entire chamber. I apologize in advance for the abysmal quality of the video.

mSvrp_bQ7Bc

That map is insane. I found so many ways to break it that I'm going to list it:
list of "alts"
||>shoot up to the exit

whack the cube on the button and run forward till the door explodes. (real, no kidding)
portal the cube into the room behind the door, glados thinks you're stuck and opens the door.
portal your way w/ the cube into the room, drop the cube into the goo, it will not respawn.
portal your way w/ the cube into the room, drop the cube onto a moving platform, so you can stand on the cube even when the platform is underwater
don't use platforms at all, just portal your way over and shoot the necessary portals for the combine ball and follow it through.
throw the cube onto the exit platform, and glados opens door.
shoot up to the platform and incinerate the cube, then jump off the platform.
combine solutions.

These were all tested by me w/out cheats, and they all work.||

Ya, that is why you want to make sure there are not super-major unintended solutions that will spoil the test.

msleeper wrote:
Yeah but I'm sure that came about after the puzzle was designed...

It did. They talk about it in the commentary. One of the playtesters discovered it and they left it in because it was only obvious to a very small amount of people.

There are unintended solutions to pretty much every Valve map.

That solution for chamber 14 is obviously intended, the proof is that the time to beat is 10 seconds, absolutely impossible with the "normal" solution

Well, it wasn't originally intended, but Valve were aware of it and hence included it in the challenge mode. I believe it's discussed in the commentary, which I highly recommend playing through if you haven't already.

Can't stress this enough. I built a map and was so pleased with myself, and then my fiance broke it with one portal. I was very unhappy - but it did give me insight into how other people play the maps.

When you can, have other people play your maps - they will think differently and solve the puzzle in ways you didn't expect - which can be awesome or disasterous!

iWork925 wrote:
Arctiq wrote:

For instance,allowing a player to put a box on a button and get to the exit before they are supposed to put a box on a button and make a laser go into a laser receiver, vice versa, etc. etc. Just wanted to let the newbies know! Cheers <3 And happy Sunday <3

Well, duh.

I laughed for like 5 minutes

jamina1 wrote:
Can't stress this enough. I built a map and was so pleased with myself, and then my fiance broke it with one portal. I was very unhappy - but it did give me insight into how other people play the maps.

When you can, have other people play your maps - they will think differently and solve the puzzle in ways you didn't expect - which can be awesome or disasterous!

Did you release it? If so, where can I find it?