Ok... I've been playing the contest maps, and there have been some maps I could only do a specific jump by doing the crouch/jump maneuver.

It's not ever needed in Portal, even in the challenge maps that I can remember. So... is it a legit maneuver to expect in a map? Is it an exploit of the game system? Is it intentional on the map makers part to make us use that maneuver (or am I just not good at jumping)?

I'm seriously thinking of not voting for any map that made me use that maneuver in the January '08 contest and I would like feedback from other mappers/players.

Jumping + crouching is totally legit as far as I am concerned - it is a very basic technique.

And depending on the map, (such as my own 'Tunneling Chamber 01' or Hurricaaane's 'Logic Portals [04]') even techniques that many players do not consider "legit" (eg. tunneling, trajectory flings) can be justified.

Honestly though I never used the crouch/jump until I started to download custom maps, so I have trouble with the idea of it being a "basic" technique.

Is it used in any other Valve/Havok games?

Both half-life and half-life 2 require it's use.

um. in HL1 there was a section that had some stairs blocked by boxes, the ONLY way to get past them into the ~secret?~ ammo/resupply area was with a crouch jump.

i know this is a little old, but it is legit valve.

now to require it without some training (since NONE of the orrig. portal maps had crouch jump training) is not fluent with the "portal" scheme but, as in logic portals 4, he TRAINS the player on an "new" technic before using it. so every logic portal map after 4 could require angular flings without training the player and that would fallow the portal scheme.

taco wrote:
Both half-life and half-life 2 require it's use.

rellikpd wrote:
um. in HL1 there was a section that had some stairs blocked by boxes, the ONLY way to get past them into the ~secret?~ ammo/resupply area was with a crouch jump.

Ok. I remember now the "long jump" maneuver used in Half Life. The crouch and then jump to get the long jump. I honestly thought it was a technique specific to the environment suit, not a general maneuver.

So it's rather amusing Valve allowed it to be available in Portal.

rellikpd wrote:
Now to require it without some training (since NONE of the orrig. portal maps had crouch jump training) is not fluent with the "portal" scheme but, as in logic portals 4, he TRAINS the player on an "new" technic before using it. so every logic portal map after 4 could require angular flings without training the player and that would fallow the portal scheme.

Now that I can agree with. If you train a player to use it in your level, then expect it later that works. At least if it's a training level. heh...

Thanks. This clarifies the issue for me.

If a map "trained" me to use jump-crouch, I'd probably be insulted - it's that basic.

taco wrote:
If a map "trained" me to use jump-crouch, I'd probably be insulted - it's that basic.

um well. firstly jump-crouch is not necessary ANYWHERE in portals, and not even used, now it can be used to bypass/speed things up but its not necessary in ANYWAY, furthermore you have to consider that PORTALS may be the VERY FIRST FPS/valve game that a person has played, in which case if they aren't trained in something its not basic, and lastly you think being trained to crouch-jump is insulting? so. when you were playing portals, and walked by that wall and the game TOLD you to "shift to crouch" were you so insulted that you uninstalled it? no. but the game developers relize that not everyone knows an even MORE basic technic as simply CROUCHING let alone crouch-jumping.

By training I meant a series of puzzles to teach me - the 'press ctrl to crouch' is already in portal. That's all the teaching a player needs.

I'm with Taco on this one. Jump+crouching is basically native to the world of Half-Life. It was in the first game (yes you could jump and then crouch in midair to land on a higher ledge than you could reach with only normal jumping) and it was kept as a feature in Half-Life 2. Portal takes place in the same reality as the Half-Life story line and so they gave it the same "basic" list of moves.

And another thing. I've played a few custom Portal maps (Logic Portals 04 for example) that would tell you to crouch if you got very close to making a fling that can only be done while crouched. If this isn't jump crouch training then I don't know what is. It teaches you that you can crouch in midair, unlike most games.

Why was the jump+crouch not trained in Portal, I don't know, maybe it was so second nature to the Valve play-testers that it never occured to anyone to teach it. Then again, I can't specifically remember it being taught in Half-Life 1 or 2.

It's also very useful in Counter-Strike and Team Fortress.

i agree "shift to crouch" IS all the training one needs. HOWEVER its not in portal, and portal very well could be the FIRST AND ONLY game a person has ever played, not likely, but possible. not. the reason its not trained in portal is cuz its not needed. anywhere. so. thats all i'm saying. atleast one little ledge, that the ONLY way to bypass by jumping and crouching should be in a map (or atleast the first of a series of maps) if that mapper expects a person to know how to do it.

There is a entity in Hammer where you can disable auto crouch jumping as far as I remember, so I presume that simple crouchjumps are done automatically but not in all cases.

In my maps, I tend to not use it at all. Because, as rellikpd said, I saw people playing a Valve game for the first time with Portal, and crouch-jumping is not as obvious as we think. Personally, I try to extend edges with little platforms to avoid 128 units jumps.

I think it's legitimate. I crouch jump all the time. It's actually like an automatic reflex for me. It would probably make a map harder for me if it required me NOT to crouch jump.

The only techniques I wouldn't consider legitimate are ones that require to you glitch the game it some way. I've played a couple maps that required that wall climbing technique where you take an object and grab/jump at the same time to float to the top. That just shouldn't be required as most people don't even know about it, nor would they be able to figure it out on their own. I wouldn't consider a strafe jump legitimate either, even though you were pretty much required to do it in order to get gold on challenge room 17.

Well, I've been playing Half Life since it first came out, and I play TF2. Jump/Crouch isn't part of my normal moves. I rarely use it unless I can't figure out another way.

I understand a lot of people feel it's a legitimate maneuver. It's been in the engine code since Half Life. In fact Valve DOES describe the dimensions the various maneuvers can cover:

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki ... Dimensions

So since crouch-jump wasn't used in the Basic Portal or the challenge levels is there a good way to communicate to the player how to use this maneuver properly?

Maybe the next mapping challenge should be about teaching a specific technique...

If you want to talk about HL1, the tutorial even made you do it. Anyone remember the tiny tunnels?

notDonut| wrote:
If you want to talk about HL1, the tutorial even made you do it. Anyone remember the tiny tunnels?

Or about 60% of the ventilation shafts after that? IMO it makes sense that if you pull your legs up you spend more time above the portal and gain more momentum.

EDIT: If you disagree with my logic fuck you.

Duffedwaffe wrote:
Or about 60% of the ventilation shafts after that? IMO it makes sense that if you pull your legs up you spend more time above the portal and gain more momentum.

EDIT: If you disagree with my logic fuck you.

... o...k...

I think my point was it IS a legit maneuver in Half Life. I also think it's never TAUGHT as a technique in Portal. And Portal ISN'T Half Life. So people who only play Portal WON'T know the technique. Which makes downloaded maps a bitch to play if you don't know how to crouch/jump. And I think I was suggesting maybe there's a way of bringing people up to speed on it. So... no, I don't disagree with your logic. I just think we can do better.

Tigger wrote:
... o...k...

I think my point was it IS a legit maneuver in Half Life. I also think it's never TAUGHT as a technique in Portal. And Portal ISN'T Half Life. So people who only play Portal WON'T know the technique. Which makes downloaded maps a bitch to play if you don't know how to crouch/jump. And I think I was suggesting maybe there's a way of bringing people up to speed on it. So... no, I don't disagree with your logic. I just think we can do better.

In all honesty, how many PC Portal players would you actually estimate haven't played HL2/HL1/Any other game that requires it.

Sure we could bring them up to speed, but I don't want a damn tutorial on "hao 2 get up thar" in every single custom Portal map.

Until this completely divides the community into two separate warring factions I don't really think anything should be done :\