yikkayaya wrote:
The difference between "every puzzle should include it" and "not a very good way of solving puzzles" is quite wide indeed
Yeah but I figure most people have one of those two opinions.
If you think it should be in a few puzzles go for should be in all puzzles
if so then I really cant see the problem, it's really hard aiming while falling at that speed.
Korjagun wrote:
Er, no, tunnelling is the trick where you place a portal while standing in "the middle" of the portal already, and backing out before the portal projectile hits the target wall so that you're essentially "moving" one end of the portal further and further through the level while not actually moving yourself.
is portal tunneling.
espen180 wrote:
Wall-Climbing: Exploit. Should not be included as a required solution because it's simply a glitch in the physics system. Cannot be avoided, but can be made useless by small ledges.
well that one is difficult enough thta i don't think it should be REQUIRED to solve a puzzle.
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Tunneling: Exploit. Should not be included as a required solution because it's an exploit based on portal travel time. Smart mappers will (if possible) take every effort to minimize the possibility of using this exploit.
i loved getting good at that and want to see more puzzles using it. shmitzchamber1's use of it was great. loved that.
Quote:
Door propping: Exploit. Should not be part of the required solution because it's a bug in the door. Smart mappers will include trigger_push entities which push physics props out of the doors before they close.
i don't mind that or any other tricks frankly.
i think that to say something is not allowed is to ignore exploring entirely new ideas and paths. let people be creative. if they can map it, the ninjas can solve it.
i'd rather have fun puzzles that challenge my mind especially with regards to figuring out portal tunneling, as an example, or putting things in doors, as another...
nothing is taboo when yoiu have the first amendment.
Quote:
But then again, that's just my opinion.
indeed.
And even if it wasn't required, you are not exploiting anything - relatively slow projectile speed is as much part of the portal gun as not taking fall damage is part of Chell's ability to land.
I started this thread without a poll on purpose; you might as well make another poll asking if flinging is a physics exploit.
The goal was to determine how people felt about it's use in common puzzle solving, not weather it is intended - because it is.
P.S. If you didn't get the idea, I think the poll thread should be closed.
Neither camp is going to totally convince the other. But maybe this discussion is still useful because it shows that tunneling is controversial. Portal mappers need to know that it should be treated with care. I doubt that this debate is likely to produce any conclusions beyond that.
Crooked Paul wrote:
Well, we've got a thread five pages long on whether it is or is not an exploit. I think the time is long past for anyone to claim "I'm obviously right and anyone who disagrees is an asshole."
I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying we aren't focusing on the issue.
The question can't be about weather it is an exploit - it can't be. The question should be about how people feel about it's use as a puzzle solution (ie. it should only be used as an alternative puzzle solving method, it is fair game, etc.)
personally as a map maker, It annoys me that I have to alter my puzzle to avoid this from happening.
on the other hand its never good to force one single solution on to players.
as for wall climbing using physics objects, I belive this is an inherent problem of the havok physics engin and cant be fixed by valve alone.
I remember using the gravity gun in hl2 and an object to super jump onto roofs etc, so this problem has been around since before portal was made.
mikebolt wrote:
If tunneling wasn't intended, then how does valve expect us to complete chamber fifteen in 54 seconds?
Be good a Portal. Duh. That's why it's Gold achievement.
Duffedwaffe wrote:
Be good a Portal. Duh. That's why it's Gold achievement.
Have you tried doing that challenge without tunneling? You can be as "good" as you want - gold isn't gonna happen without tunneling.
taco wrote:
Have you tried doing that challenge without tunneling? You can be as "good" as you want - gold isn't gonna happen without tunneling.
well, just a thought:
It took this guy 21 seconds to get up to the part where he needed tunneling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFgvWhfEGzo
Then 4 seconds after the tunneling part to get to the end...
leaving him with 29 seconds in which to do the part where he tunneled without tunneling.
It may not be the way Valve intended 15 gold to be done. It may even be that Valve intended us to use tunnelling. Who knows?
However arguing that tunnelling is an official part of Portal because of 15 gold is invalid.
Footnote: I like tunnelling.
Rivid31 wrote:
Leave it to Player1 to always find the hackiest way to beat a map.
Good work.
I did it the same way... So yeah, take that people who think it's not an exploit. Last I checked, standing inside a wall was an exploit, which is essentially what you're doing while tunneling.
Duffedwaffe wrote:
So yeah, take that people who think it's not an exploit. Last I checked, standing inside a wall was an exploit, which is essentially what you're doing while tunneling.
Don't use it as an excuse to say that tunnelling is an exploit. Just because it wasn't necessarily part of the original design doesn't make it an exploit.
The argument "standing inside a wall is an exploit" is completely moot here because the whole basis of the game is the fact that you create new openings in walls (dynamically created user placed doors if you will). Or is it an exploit to stand in a doorway between two rooms?
In my book speed-crouch-backward-jumping and phys-prop-wall-climbing are exploits whereas tunnelling is not. The dividing line between exploits and non-exploits is, as others have put it in this thread, that exploits abuse obvious bugs in the game engine which both of those above mentioned are, where tunelling is a direct byproduct of actual game mechanics. Exploits can be removed by fixing bugs. The non-exploits can only be removed by redesigning the game.
I wouldn't like maps to require exploits to complete, however all exploits are fair game when doing real ultimate speed runs of course.
(In a completely unrelated note: Somebody make a map with a grenade launcher or something where you have to do a grenade jump to get momentum for a fling... Please!!! 
)
