A map designed to make you think.

This is not a series of chambers, but a large interconnected puzzle that requires exploration and problem-solving. It's meant to be solved over time and not intended to be burned through in one sitting.

The most important thing to focus on is that the intended solution is not tedious. While the map does have several solutions, some are more tedious than others, and if you find yourself repeating a multiple times to "get it right" (or are becoming frustrated), then most likely it'll be best to take a step back and reconsider the strategy.

A walkthrough for version 1.1.1 is available here (best to view if stuck or to compare with your solution):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBUwK4-qfLc

Notes:

- It is possible to do things that make the puzzle unsolvable. Usually you will realize problem relatively quickly. Autosaves are placed in such a way as to help minimize getting stuck.
- Both .bsp and .vmf are included in all versions. Want to see how I made the enable/disable/reverse tractor beam? Go right ahead.

Changelog:
v. 1.3.2 - Added elevators & pit lasers.
v. 1.3.1 - Many cosmetic and convenience additions.
v. 1.3.0 - Changed the puzzle a little. Fizzlers now work as normal, fizzling boxes too! Added about 2 or 3 additional non-trivial solutions. Added some lighting. Added some small changes to increase intuitiveness. Cleaned up many extraneous entities. Lots of small bug fixes.
v. 1.2.1 - Added textures to make it prettier.
v. 1.2.0 - Reduced need to resolve elements. Fixed solutions broken in 1.1.2. Added autosaves. Added additional non-trivial solutions.
v. 1.1.2 - Pits now kill the player. Added lighting to make traps more obvious. Finished all indicators.
v. 1.1.1 - Aesthetic changes to increase map intuitiveness.
v. 1.1.0 - Fixed several exploits. Fixed ending room.
v. 1.0.0 - Initial release.

File Name: sp_engineer-1.3.3.zip
File Size: 4.67 MiB
Click here to download Engineer

If you get stuck and need some help, just ask here. I or any other fabulous forum-goer will respond with a hint and/or solution in a labeled spoiler tag:

Hint
This is a small hint to point you in the right direction.
Big Hint
This is a spoiler hint.
Solution
This is the intended solution.

Edit: updated to using bigspoiler tags. Thanks msleeper!

Don't Forget
You can put big lengthy spoilers in bigspoiler tags. You can put images and even Youtube videos in here!

So I can collect three of the four cubes, but not the one in the emancipation field room. I'm guessing I will have to abandon my light bridge at that point and use the repulsion gel from a height... but then what about the laser? Can't see any way to that. I also don't understand what the second button in the hallway before the emancipation field room is for.

I only got about half-way through this map (I got the first three cubes but couldn't figure out what to do next).

First off let me just say - as I did the other day regarding The Unknown by KLJF22 - that the use of backtracking in the map is good design sense; you're making the most of the level by forcing players to go back and forth between chambers.

Having said that, I see a number of design problems. Please decrease the riser height of the stairs; they are an absolute bitch to keep jumping up all the time.

Also, while not strictly necessary, indicator lights are an important element of most portal maps. They quickly remind the player what buttons link to each element of the puzzle and so forth. It's not uncommon to go for a "press the button to see what it does" approach, but to be honest, there are so many more appropriate ways of making a puzzle more challenging than removing indicators. There are a lot of floor buttons in your map, and it sometimes took me a minute or two to realize what each one does. For instance, I thought the two buttons next to the excursion funnel where both to turn it on (that is, you cant turn it on without having both buttons pressed), because I stepped on the reverse button first (which did nothing while it was off) then put a cube on the button that turns it on. It's up to you; I think they should be a definate inclusion in a map as complex as this one.

The glass covering the walls; I imagine that was just to stop the player from portaling? It's an interesting idea but they are kind of hard to see at times and weren't immediately noticeable from a distance. For that reason, I think you should stick to the non-portalable walls for those areas.

There's also a few areas in the map where you can get stuck (like under the laser) and there doesn't seem to be a way out; this should definately be avoided as much as possible.

Overall it's an interesting map, enough so to keep me playing for a good half-hour, but I think you should work on refining the overall design.

cajuncook wrote:
So I can collect three of the four cubes, but not the one in the emancipation field room. I'm guessing I will have to abandon my light bridge at that point and use the repulsion gel from a height... but then what about the laser? Can't see any way to that. I also don't understand what the second button in the hallway before the emancipation field room is for.

1.) Okay, it looks like this map has a problem.

The cube in the emancipation field room should be Box #3. It should be impossible to get the box on the pedestal under the glass until this box has been obtained. Can you tell me how you did it?

As for your questions:

1.)

I also don't understand what the second button in the hallway before the emancipation field room is for.

This is not a spoiler. I guess I'll need to add indicator lights to make this clear. This button rotates the back of the tractor beam tube so that you can place a portal there.

2.)

So I can collect three of the four cubes, but not the one in the emancipation field room. I'm guessing I will have to abandon my light bridge at that point and use the repulsion gel from a height

This should be the 3rd box, not the 4th box. So, you should only have 2 boxes to work with at this point. I will have to fix that.

Hint
Right.
Big Hint
Right. The repulsion gel on the ground is misleading. Use the tractor beam instead.
Solution
Right. The repulsion gel on the ground is misleading. Place a portal inside this room, then take the box sitting on the button for this room's door and place it onto the tractor-beam reversal button. Ride the tractor beam into this room and jump out before hitting the emancipation grill. Then use the tractor beam to put blue gel on the box.

3.) what about the laser

Hint
There is a portal panel above the laser.
Big Hint
Use the tractor beam in reverse mode to pull yourself up.
Solution
Use the tractor beam in reverse mode, and carry a box with you. Suck yourself back while using the box to block the laser beam.

Ruien- I got that first cube as well.

Mostly by throwing my cube at it repeatedly until I got it to the edge. Then I used it as a step to grab the cube and pull it down. xD

Actually, I have all four cubes now and no clue what to do. goes to continue trying to work it out

Also, I just read the second hint you gave. That's not how I got the cube.

I used the repulsion gel to gain height, then threw my cube at it again. I know, my solution to everything is throwing cubes. I'm a stubborn dolt and if I can't do something I just try harder. xD

Nacimota,

Thanks for the comments. First, regarding your comment "to be honest, there are so many more appropriate ways of making a puzzle more challenging than removing indicators."

Indeed! I work a lot and haven't had time to add them in yet. I will definitely add both indicators and pictures to show what the items do. If figuring out what a button is intended to do is the main design goal of a map, then we have a problem.

Also, you said that you got the first 3 boxes but then couldn't figure out what to do next. Can you tell me which 3 boxes you did get? If you are going according to the Intended Solution (my ultimate design goal), this would be:

Box #1: Box at bottom of pit near first room
Box #2: Box in glass construct near excursion funnel
Box #3: Box in emancipation field room
Box #4: Box at top of pedestal in the pit near the first room

Quote:
Please decrease the riser height of the stairs; they are an absolute bitch to keep jumping up all the time.

Indeed, another fine suggestion.

Quote:
The glass covering the walls; I imagine that was just to stop the player from portaling? It's an interesting idea but they are kind of hard to see at times and weren't immediately noticeable from a distance. For that reason, I think you should stick to the non-portalable walls for those areas.

Haha, this was my one attempt at visual design. You're right; i should swap it back to the other texture. I'll probably leave the glass there though because I think it looks cool.

Quote:
There's also a few areas in the map where you can get stuck (like under the laser) and there doesn't seem to be a way out; this should definately be avoided as much as possible.

Get stuck "under the laser"? Hmm, that definitely shouldn't be possible. I'll have to play around and see how you got down there. If you just mean "in the area near the laser", that's not a bug. That's a puzzle element.

However, you're right. Right now there are some pits that you can fall into that don't have trigger_hurt yet.

Thursaz wrote:
Ruien- I got that first cube as well.
Mostly by throwing my cube at it repeatedly until I got it to the edge. Then I used it as a step to grab the cube and pull it down. xD

Ah! No, I will have to fix that. Figuring out how to get that cube correctly is supposed to be more than half the map!

In general, if you have to do crazy things that take multiple attempts (like throwing cubes in both cases), it's not the intended solution. But thanks! This tells me what I'll need to fix.

Quote:
Actually, I have all four cubes now and no clue what to do. goes to continue trying to work it out

You're almost there. Now you just need to get the laser and you'll be done with the map.

Quote:
Also, I just read the second hint you gave. That's not how I got the cube.

I used the repulsion gel to gain height, then threw my cube at it again. I know, my solution to everything is throwing cubes. I'm a stubborn dolt and if I can't do something I just try harder. xD

Okay, I have some ideas on how to make this impossible. Would you guys like a youtube video of the intended solution at some point?

While we're at it, are we supposed to be able to shoot at the surface above the laser from the other room by stacking two cubes and shooting?

...mind you this doesn't actually help me solve it at all. xD

EDIT: As for a youtube video, sure! I'll only watch it once I solve the map, in any case. I'll be sure to alert you if I happen to have solved anything else by means unintended.~

Nope, I got the both in the bottom of the first room and the box on the pedestal of that same room, then I got the box from the glass room using the excusion funnel

Thursaz wrote:
While we're at it, are we supposed to be able to shoot at the surface above the laser from the other room by stacking two cubes and shooting?

Haha! No!! But that's really creative!

Quote:
EDIT: As for a youtube video, sure! I'll only watch it once I solve the map, in any case. I'll be sure to alert you if I happen to have solved anything else by means unintended.

Alright. I'll do it tonight and try to get it uploaded. Since I live in China, it takes awhile to upload to youtube.

Nacimota wrote:
Nope, I got the both in the bottom of the first room and the box on the pedestal of that same room, then I got the box from the glass room using the excusion funnel

Thanks Nacimota. Once I fix this, the map's difficulty should increase by a lot.

Quote:
Thanks Nacimota. Once I fix this, the map's difficulty should increase by a lot.

I'm scared.

Okay, but really, great job on a high difficulty map. Of all the maps I've played (which is every one uploaded on this site, incidentally), yours I would judge to be the hardest and stumped me the most. Which is awesome, and I hope to see more maps from you.

Thursaz wrote:
Okay, but really, great job on a high difficulty map. Of all the maps I've played (which is every one uploaded on this site, incidentally), yours I would judge to be the hardest and stumped me the most. Which is awesome, and I hope to see more maps from you.

Thanks!

What I'm trying to design with this map is not a one-off run-through chamber, but ultimately would like it to be a single large puzzle that progresses in stages as the player "unlocks" different tools while at the same time keeping tedium to a minimum.

Then people could put in 30 min here, an hour there, etc, and it would become it's own "campaign" of sorts, but would be a lot more open-ended puzzle solving than what the Portal 2 story had to offer.

I would also love to play other levels like this in the future, so I'll keep an eye on these forums to see if anyone else is coming out with maps of a similar design structure.

So far I've only put 1 day of paper design + 1 day of actual mapping into this. I'll keep adding and refining as time goes on.

Okay- It'd be awesome to see this map evolve, haha. Erm... Regarding the map itself- Decided not to do anything crazy, so that cube I was throwing things at is now my third cube; I just stacked the two cubes I had next to the pillar, jumped, and grabbed the cube.

Mate, the map-wide puzzle and backtracking are good ideas. But make it pleasant for the player: it's big & empty, you can get stuck too. So far it's just a start.

stuck

ive got right to the end i think but i need 1 more cube for the last button

i cant see a way to leave a portal for the laser and get the cube left on the button to reverse the plate for the tractor beam which is needed to escape from the laser emitter area

I just realized this too and fixed the map already in v.1.1 which I'm working on at the moment and should be up in an hour or so. Originally I did have it so you could pull down that cube, but then I realized that I will want to use the tractor beam in the next section that I'm building -- which means that the tractor beam activation panel needs to stay active.

So, I have now removed the final button in v1.1, thus making it so the correct solution is to end up with 3 boxes and laser to open the door, and one box remains activating the tractor beam for the next section that I'm still designing.

I am also fixing the unintended solutions so far and creating a walkthrough of the intended solution for people to compare against.

hehe that was half an hour wasted trying to figure out what to do

good map tho. nice and hard.

looking forward to the next part

This map is just far too difficult without more hints to aid solving of the puzzle, I got frustrated and gave up in the end

Aw, come on! Frustration is the mark of difficulty!

coughs I'm kidding, but I'm confused-

Is there a way to get the cube on the button that activates the funnel down from that corridor once you have the laser? If so, hint? Because I cannot for the life of me think of a solution. xD Can't get up there with a portal since the laser occupies it, nor by any alternative means I know of...

Nice map. Maybe put a few indicators for where to go next. I got the two boxes in the final room, but took me forever to realize there was another hole in the wall to get to the 4th cube area. I spent far too long trying to figure out how I could possibly get that 3rd cube.

And yeah, indicator lights would be nice too, and the stairs are a bitch. I enjoyed the map, but it can be frustrating when you screw up, as it takes a long time to reset and have to do things over again.

Engineer 1.1.0 released.

To anyone who is stuck with 3 cubes + laser, this is now fixed in 1.1.0

First, it solves the problem of that extra button at the end and also removes most of the exploits.

I'm working on a walkthrough video, but even getting through myself without a single mistake is proving to be difficult :-/

Hi Ruien,

Your map is great. Hard and tricky.
But...
I collected all 4 boxes, without using the tractor beam at all. I could jump into the tube from a bridge right in front of it. Then... I thought the only way I can get out of the place where the laser comes out of the floor, is a reverse tractor beam, but I could not open a portal at the end of the beam. There is probably a glass wall there.
This is the situation, but I did not check your last update... Should I replay the map from the beginning after I updated it?

FINALLY. Damn, that was a hard map... The new version forced me into being really creative, haha- I got the cubes in the correct order this time, using what I think is the correct solution. I have to say if it is, I've never seen it used quite like that before, and good job with it! I had a lot of trouble with it, though. Even after I figured the solution out. >>; Look forward to seeing the proper solution so I can compare it with mine. : 3

krexim wrote:
I collected all 4 boxes, without using the tractor beam at all. I could jump into the tube from a bridge right in front of it. Then... I thought the only way I can get out of the place where the laser comes out of the floor, is a reverse tractor beam, but I could not open a portal at the end of the beam. There is probably a glass wall there.

The tractor beam is a major part of this puzzle, at least as I have designed the intended solution.

You said, "I could not open a portal at the end of the beam. There is probably a glass wall there.". No, there's a button in the hallway "upstairs" that rotates the back of the tractor beam tube so that you can place a portal there. I will add an indicator path to help make this relationship clearer.

Quote:
This is the situation, but I did not check your last update... Should I replay the map from the beginning after I updated it?

Yes, but just to make sure that your way "works" in the updated version. I removed some unintended solutions (mainly throwing/stacking boxes to get other boxes) but the main solution wasn't changed.

I also finished my walkthrough video now. I am processing it and will upload it later today.

i made a solution video

be interesting to compare with yours

mines over 12 mins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB2g7rjUGY0

ufo: That was a great solution! I've never saw or thought of it being done that way. You'll still want to check out my intended solution though since it's quite a bit different.

That said, I loved the solution and I won't do anything to make this not work in the future. It's not an exploit and absolutely requiring my solution would make the map way too difficult and not much fun at all.

As it stands, there is a bit of "leeway" in solutions, and I did this on purpose. I could have made it harder by requiring both buttons in the upstairs hallway to be pressed in order to open the door to the emancipation field room. But, frankly, that pigeonholes the player so much that it becomes frustrating.

Good work!

Haha, I got that last cube in the same way, though the box I covered with repulsion gel kept bouncing into the funnel. That was a little frustrating. xD Still got it in the end, though!

Visually this map is incredibly boring. You use the same 4 or 5 textures on basically every surface. You also don't have cubemaps, which only makes everything appear much more flat. Your lighting seems to just exist, with no clear source - light panels or observation rooms.

I think this was mentioned previously: in the excursion funnel part, you put glass on top of white surfaces to make them non-portalable. Not only does this look bad, but it breaks what the player expects. As Nacimota said, just use a non-portalable material on these surfaces.

Quote:
It is possible to do things that make the puzzle unsolvable. This is by design. Start over with newfound insight.

This is a terrible philosophy and is a big reason why this map is simply not fun. The problem with wanting to make a map "hard" is that often the easiest way is to make it either unfair or complete nonsense - which your map seems to have done both. If I am going to be penalized by getting myself stuck somewhere, then you should put hazard liquid or something to let the player know it is literally a dead end.

msleeper wrote:
Quote:

It is possible to do things that make the puzzle unsolvable. This is by design. Start over with newfound insight.

This is a terrible philosophy and is a big reason why this map is simply not fun. The problem with wanting to make a map "hard" is that often the easiest way is to make it either unfair or complete nonsense - which your map seems to have done both. If I am going to be penalized by getting myself stuck somewhere, then you should put hazard liquid or something to let the player know it is literally a dead end.

I agree. Imagine a Rubik's Cube that falls apart if you try to turn it in a very specific way. You shouldn't destroy the players work as a consequence for exploring the level, especially since you have no autosaves. It's contrary to game design practise to trap the player without giving them some indication they are trapped. Most players who get stuck in an area will at first think there is some hidden way out that they are not seeing. After a while they will simply conclude that the trap was an unintended design flaw (as I did before you said it was intentional).

Well, to be fair, once I had the warning I saved every couple of puzzles- And also to be fair, that philosophy made me think really, really hard on what to do, hence my portal being constantly on the light bridge all the way until the third box, while I would have normally removed it much sooner.

I like being challenged to think, though I understand why it might frustrate a lot of people.

Man, I would have never got box #4 without ufo's video (he got it third, though). I gave up on it. I liked the map til then. I don't mind the stuck areas, but only because you warned us beforehand. I just made lots of save games. I hated having to wash the bouncy box.

Same as sorebones- I did get how to get it (because hey, only one thing -can- get it, and I have to commend you on a really good idea there, it stumped me for a good ten to twenty minutes) but washing it was hell because it kept getting stuck in the funnel. xD And other places. It's hard to catch it. I dunno, I might suggest 'deposit' areas where the box can be temporarily kept without it bouncing to god knows where, because I lost it once. xD

Repeat with me three times: the player is not my enemy. All is fair for difficulty, but even heavy weights can't punch below the belt. Exploits, force quickloads, sudden deaths all count as cojones in my book.

Seems interesting but I was too put off by the lack of lighting to keep playing it. Everything is so one-colored that it becomes diffcult\tiresome for the eyes too actually see and understand the geometry.
How about asking one of the map designers who are good at visual design to help you with it, combination of good gameplay + good visuals is killer. : Doesn't have to be over the top, just a little lighting to make it more colorful + more contrast to make it easier on the eyes to read.

Okay, decided to upload my own solution to just the very beginning of the map, since it's quite different from how UFO did it. Everything else save the order of obtaining the cubes are mostly the same- Well, I also didn't bring any cube with me, I just brought along the one with repulsion gel, used it to knock the last cube down, then used the new one to get back on the light bridge. But I digress.

I'm not sure if it's anything closer to the intended solution, but:

Part of solution
bu48dGaAFHM

lot quicker than mine thursaz. good work

Allowing people the freedom to find their own solutions is part of the fun of creative map design, please don't close them off

UFO- Nah, it's just the first part, which is only a bit faster. xD And I'd get much sloppier in the later parts, so I'd take longer overall. I'm terrible at grabbing repulsion cubes. Chase it around all over the place.

Shane- Yes, I love a map having several alternative solutions. xD Some would still have to be closed off, though- The one Ruien closed off skipped half the map, so it's understandable.

Hey all --

#1.) The map is visually boring.

Agreed. I only had one day to work on the map after design and I do have a full-time job. I'll make it pretty someday probably

#2.) Glass over white walls is bad design.

Agreed as per Nacimota's original comment and this is already fixed pending update 1.1.1. It was actually supposed to go into 1.1.0 but I forgot.

#3.) Some parts are tedious (like washing the box).

Actually, the intended solution is not tedious. It just means you're doing it wrong, even though the solution works. If I weren't having so many problems encoding my solution video, you would have already had it to compare against.

#4.) Regarding dead-ends.

Actually, there are very few dead-ends. The only real dead-end that you wouldn't know about right away is if you isolate yourself from a box. Perhaps it's not great design, but it's also impossible to make a very in-depth map while ensuring that the puzzle always remains in a solvable state. By "intended" I meant that I am willing to sacrifice persistent solvability for a more engrossing puzzle

#5.) This isn't meant to be a one-shot puzzle.

Figuring out the intended (non-tedious) solution should take six to nine hours of gameplay. And hopefully not in one sitting! I was hoping more over the course of 3 weeks. There are plenty of one-shot puzzles, so I'm trying to make something different.

Portal 2 was not designed around this philosophy, and that's actually a good thing, because it would frustrate a lot of people and have made the game unpopular. However, I actually enjoy working through a big interconnecting puzzle over a long (2-3 week period) and I'm sure that I can't be the only one who feels this way.

I also appreciate all of your suggestions. I also will have the 1.1.1 update out and solution video up by morning.

Haha, I love long interconnecting puzzles, but I'm the kind of person that does it all in one sitting. xD Some puzzles, though, if hard enough, will force me to take a break and come back to it later. Some of yours are that sort, which is good- for me, at least.

I still commend you on difficulty, and I think the box isn't so much tedious as... "GET BACK HERE fkjdhsgflsdfj"

Yeah. That.

Again, I personally don't mind dead ends. Fear of hitting one makes me think all the harder, and this chamber's milked my brain the most deliciously- It doesn't make things difficult with overwhelming complexity (re: OH GOD WHY ARE THERE SO MANY THINGS WHAT IS THIS MY COMPUTER IS LAGGING), but with genuine, logical puzzles, and that's a really good thing.

I'll probably try to find the intended solution at some point.

Haha, am I the only one who used a fling to get the second box? I feel so lame.

Alright everyone -- the intended solution for version 1.1.1b (youtube video):

Intended Solution
uBUwK4-qfLc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBUwK4-qfLc

So i tried this map out a bit. There are a couple things i noted.

1. This is tedious and difficult - There was a lack of direction, no symbols to indicate where to go next or what buttons do, normally puzzles would have the button and the dots on the wall leading to the item it activates. Sometimes the numbering of puzzles helps players move along like having the box with the number of dots in it indicating this is step 1, 2, 3 etc.I tried forever to get that cube on the pedestal, then gave up to see a laser that i have no idea what to do with, then to this giant room with buttons, glass all over with secret passages, and little holes in the wall that were hard to find, like to the final room and the gel room. I then spent almost 1hour looking at the entire map inch by inch just to make sure i wasnt missing anything. I dunno maybe some lighting or different textures can help with alot of these problems which leads me to


2. It doesnt look that great. yes i know that u said its meant for more of the puzzle design, but believe me! i love puzzles, but walking back into some of those rooms for the bazillioneth time was getting extremely tiring.

3. It was a bit long. I spent almost 3 hours looking, testing. even your solution video was almost 13mins long and YOU KNEW WHAT TO DO!!! It was the hardest set of puzzles ive done to date.


In the end i think all the map really needs is direction. That way people can figure it out sooner and not be bored with the looks of the level.

Thats my 2cents, keep them puzzles coming !!

sorebones wrote:
Haha, am I the only one who used a fling to get the second box? I feel so lame.

Nope, that's how I got it as well

Actually, I've been thinking about the fizzler thing. I don't like that at all. Fizzlers should destroy cubes, period, unless there are official Portal levels in which they don't. I can't think of any, but my memory for stuff like that isn't really great so if there are then I take it back.

Instead of changing the function of the emancipation field, why not just put a grill over the top portal surface so the player can't go through it and get rid of the emancipation fields altogether? Or put a small emancipation field over the the portal area so if the player goes through it he hits it and loses his portals. The chances of the box bouncing into it are small enough.

Ruien wrote:
#4.) Regarding dead-ends.

Actually, there are very few dead-ends. The only real dead-end that you wouldn't know about right away is if you isolate yourself from a box. Perhaps it's not great design, but it's also impossible to make a very in-depth map while ensuring that the puzzle always remains in a solvable state. By "intended" I meant that I am willing to sacrifice persistent solvability for a more engrossing puzzle

#5.) This isn't meant to be a one-shot puzzle.

Figuring out the intended (non-tedious) solution should take six to nine hours of gameplay. And hopefully not in one sitting! I was hoping more over the course of 3 weeks. There are plenty of one-shot puzzles, so I'm trying to make something different.

Portal 2 was not designed around this philosophy, and that's actually a good thing, because it would frustrate a lot of people and have made the game unpopular. However, I actually enjoy working through a big interconnecting puzzle over a long (2-3 week period) and I'm sure that I can't be the only one who feels this way.

I realize you are really stuck on this "my map is going to be extremely hard and that is on purpose" and I'm not expecting to change your mind. You want your map to be "hard", okay, I get it. But you are not going to get a lot of players enjoying it because the design philosophy you have is simply not fun.

I was able to get to the excursion funnel before I decided the map was just not fun enough to play any more. At that point I can think of probably 4 or 5 different ways I could get hopelessly stuck. I also realize that you did this on purpose - and I'm trying to tell you that is bad design. If I fall in a hole and that is supposed to be a "dead end", then just kill me. At least if I see hazard water, I know I'm supposed to avoid it at all costs.

Saying that a single map should take "2 to 3 weeks to solve" and a single puzzle element "8 to 9 hours" is completely ludicrous. No, just no. Portal 2's Singleplayer and Coop combined took around 8 to 10 hours for most people. There was around 60 or 70 puzzles in the whole game.

This map is simply not fun, and it's not fun because you built it that way. "Next to impossible to solve" does not equal enjoyability.

First let me say, I liked the map very much. Finally a challenge.
This map was among coop maps, so I played it with a friend. We never figured out what is doing that button, which enabled you to place portal so you can redirect the funnel. So we finished entire level without it, and it was great fun . So you can easily convert the level to coop by removing that button.

This is how we did it:
1. jumping from box to light bridge
I had the same idea, but it didn't work. I couldn't reach it. How do you do that?

2. taking the cube in water room
We used light bridge

3. taking the cube in the lower place (where you used jumping cube)
We took all 3 cubes, stacked them and jump'n'catch the high one
The jumping cube was backup plan. Theoretically you can remove the blue gel in coop too.

4. taking laser
We used one cube to stay on (near the hole leading to lower place with 2 cubes in it), while we placed the portal through window

I really wanted to like this map. I was about 4/5 chambers in and quite enjoying the challenge. Not knowing which elements I'd need to progress, and I liked that. Its nice not having every tool you need and ONLY those tools shoved in your face saying "HERE! PUT THESE TOGETHER TO SOLVE PUZZLE!" But, I was exploring one of the chambers when I randomly fell into a pit. Why did I fall? Because it was a black pit in the middle of a black hallway with no lighting. FUCK THAT. This puzzle is basically designed for you to fuck up without knowing it and then have to restart. And no, I'm not going to go around saving it every 30 seconds just in case I fall into one of your "need to have fallen for it before" traps.

Protip: Forcing the player to replay the map != longer play time.

This map would be extremely fun and just as challenging if you just got rid of stupid shit like that.

Oh, THAT's what the cage is for... yeah, okay. xD A lot of my solution was unintended, it seems.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I added indicators in version 1.1.1, so that should solve the "I can't figure out what this button does" issue.

As for making it hard by not adding enough lighting, that's a problem and is now on the to-do list to fix.

Quote:
But, I was exploring one of the chambers when I randomly fell into a pit.

Sorry! I thought I had made the pits obvious enough in 1.1.0, but I could be wrong. I can also add water (with trigger_hurt) instead so that you die when falling into it. Would that help?

Quote:
Protip: Forcing the player to replay the map != longer play time.

Absolutely. And I'll fix it. Your post gives me a good starting point.

It'll be a few weeks before this is ready for the "Released" maps section, but thanks a lot for everyone's help so far.

Justevil wrote:
This is tedious and difficult

Okay, I have a good idea how to fix a lot of the things you mentioned, and will be rolled out in 1.1.2. Thanks!

If you're going to have trigger_hurt, a few autosaves would be nice. xD Just make sure nothing autosaves just before falling into a pit. That happened to me in an official Portal level...

Thursaz wrote:
If you're going to have trigger_hurt, a few autosaves would be nice. xD Just make sure nothing autosaves just before falling into a pit. That happened to me in an official Portal level...

Sounds good. Now I just have to figure out how to make autosaves

If it wasn't totally obvious already, this is my first experience with Hammer and more-or-less my first experience in mapmaking in general.

Thanks for the reply and listening to reason

I think more lighting will definitely help. Theres some hallways and stuff that has almost no light, and its really easy to get turned around and not be able to see where you should (or can) go. Maybe throw in a few different textures here and there, like something different for the floor and ceiling. Something with a slightly higher light level so everything doesnt seem so dark. I know its not portalable, but that black tile can wear on you when its EVERYWHERE.



I guess if you're open to suggestions it gives me more reason to play it and get farther into it and try to help you refine it.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: The suspended glass room thats in front of the excursion funnel is fugly. I'd suggest using catwalks or at least mix up the textures a bit. I get that you want us to see whats in there, but the glass texture going every which way isnt the best choice. Of course, this is after the basic playability improvements, so feel free to disregard for now.

sorebones wrote:
Haha, am I the only one who used a fling to get the second box? I feel so lame.

Not at all; that's the intended solution

Haha, god no it wasn't obvious. I've never seen such difficulty in a first time map- A lot of high difficulty maps rely on tricks and glitches and it's beyond annoying, so good job having your difficulty in logic based puzzles, heh.

Oh, that was the easy part.

I sat down for an entire evening and wrote out a 2-page list of logic-based "puzzle elements", most of which I haven't seen used before in the portal series. (I only used about 6 or 7 of them total in this map.)

Then, I drew out (on paper) how all of these pieces should work together and sketched out all of the room designs.

Well I finished it. From the initial time estimation I figured there'd be another room past the end, but I guess not!

I'm guessing you're supposed to use a bouncy cube to get the last cube off of the pedistal?

Its not really as bad as I said, but it still made me stop playing. Put more lights up and make acid water to show people the places you're not supposed to go. Getting stuck in a hole hopeless to get out is SOOOO much worse than just killing them.

Something that you might want to look into is making it so the player doesn't have to "resolve" puzzles to progress through the various stages. For example, I dont know how many times I had to do the first sequence of bridging up to the door button, portaling through the door, then going back to the starting room to retrieve the cube and/or get use of the light bridge again. I had to have done this 10+ times during the course of the map, necessary or not. Once you have solved a part of the puzzle, the fun of doing it is gone, and it just becomes a chore if you need to repeat it over and over again. Sorry I cant suggest a way around this, but its just something to think about. From the looks of it you have an amazing mind for these puzzles and you could work something out without too much trouble

Not a lot of new mappers are able to do this, though. xD It's still rather impressive, at least to me!

Neoxx wrote:
Well I finished it. From the initial time estimation I figured there'd be another room past the end, but I guess not!

Great work!

No, the time estimation was more of a complete process. Like, "take the map slowly and then get some great idea of how to do section X while driving to work or taking a shower". I know that's kind of a weird design goal.

Quote:
I'm guessing you're supposed to use a bouncy cube to get the last cube off of the pedistal?

Yep! Check out the intended solution to compare with yours

Quote:
Its not really as bad as I said, but it still made me stop playing. Put more lights up and make acid water to show people the places you're not supposed to go. Getting stuck in a hole hopeless to get out is SOOOO much worse than just killing them.

Okay, That's good to know. I'll do that for all of the pits.

Quote:
Something that you might want to look into is making it so the player doesn't have to "resolve" puzzles to progress through the various stages. Once you have solved a part of the puzzle, the fun of doing it is gone, and it just becomes a chore if you need to repeat it over and over again.

Completely agreed. Actually I have been spending some serious time trying to figure out the "right way" to do this. There has to be a way to, for example, open another door once a puzzle has been solved in order to avoid having to resolve something. But I did try this at one point and found that having that extra panel then trivialized the excursion funnel part :-/

Thanks for the input though. I'll put some more brain power into it and see if I can figure out the right way to do it.

Thursaz wrote:
Not a lot of new mappers are able to do this, though. xD It's still rather impressive, at least to me!

Thanks!

sorebones wrote:
Actually, I've been thinking about the fizzler thing. I don't like that at all. Fizzlers should destroy cubes, period, unless there are official Portal levels in which they don't. I can't think of any, but my memory for stuff like that isn't really great so if there are then I take it back.

Well, no. The official portal mechanics would always fizzle the box. However, in this puzzle you never need to pull a box through a fizzler. I just disabled the box fizzle so that you wouldn't dead-end if the box accidentally touched it. For all intents and purposes, you can treat them as if they do fizzle boxes and it's the same solution.

Quote:
Instead of changing the function of the emancipation field, why not just put a grill over the top portal surface so the player can't go through it and get rid of the emancipation fields altogether?

This would break the solution in about 3 places.

Quote:
Or put a small emancipation field over the the portal area so if the player goes through it he hits it and loses his portals. The chances of the box bouncing into it are small enough.

This would break the intended solution and also pigeonhole the player into a single alternate solution, making the map far too frustrating.

Shortening the re-solves
Its kinda hard to think of how you could achieve an easier re-entry into the main room/s. I think the biggest hurdle is the door that closes every time you want to get back to the main room with your new cube and the light bridge. You go up to the door (no cube, not needed really), portal through it, then go around and portal back into the starting room to retrieve the cube/bridge. Maybe have some sort of permanent door opener in the main room once you first solve it. Generally you have a cube in the main room to spare, so possibly put another button on the inside to keep the door open while you get your next cube. That will remove the final step of portaling back into the start room again as you can keep your original portal in tact.

I'm not sure if permanently keeping that first door open after you solve it (manually portal past it, button on the inside that unlocks it) is maybe not needing 1 of the cubes to finish the map. You need 3 cubes to fully operate the funnel in order to pull yourself out of the laser room, and the fourth to keep the door open. The fourth could be done away with, and to finish it you would have to go the extra step and retrieve the cube that is working the portalable wall instead of just taking the 4th cube through the funnel with you.

I hope I'm making enough sense to you

Btw, the part where you get the 3rd cube, and you're then forced to funnel yourself back to the beginning and drop down was a very nice touch. I just wish I hadn't fallen into that pit the first time I went in there and was like "Ooo, I wonder whats down that hall! fall WTF!"

Quote:
Quote:

Instead of changing the function of the emancipation field, why not just put a grill over the top portal surface so the player can't go through it and get rid of the emancipation fields altogether?

This would break the solution in about 3 places.

This gave me an idea.... in the room with the emancipation grills and the cube on a platform, why not just replace those grilles with metal grates? I assume the idea behind them is to prevent the player from using the excursion funnel to go directly to the cube and grab it. Using grates would have the same effect, but not be confusing as to if the cube will be killed or not.

It would also have a better aesthetic if that area was sectioned off completely with grates with an actual door leading into it. It would further reinforce that you cant use the funnel to get to the cube, but that you have to use the gel on it.

Re: Neoxx

Reply to Neoxx
||> Quote:

Generally you have a cube in the main room to spare, so possibly put another button on the inside to keep the door open while you get your next cube. That will remove the final step of portaling back into the start room again as you can keep your original portal in tact.

That's a great idea. I'll playtest this when I get home from work.

Quote:
I'm not sure if permanently keeping that first door open after you solve it (manually portal past it, button on the inside that unlocks it) is maybe not needing 1 of the cubes to finish the map. You need 3 cubes to fully operate the funnel in order to pull yourself out of the laser room, and the fourth to keep the door open. The fourth could be done away with, and to finish it you would have to go the extra step and retrieve the cube that is working the portalable wall instead of just taking the 4th cube through the funnel with you.

Another fine idea. I'll playtest this too.

However, there are a couple of things I am worried about:
* I like the idea of the user getting so used to pulling the cube through that door twice in a row that the third time they need to leave the cube on the button outside. This introduces a fresh bit of logic that seems clear in retrospect but may not be at the time.
* I think the main part of backtracking is actually just to get the light bridge so many times. The main requirements here are (1) the person knows how to go back to room 1 through the window, and (2) brings a box with them in order to get back.

What if I solved this by:

(1) making a one-shot button in the hallway upstairs that opens a panel in the main room which has a disabled light bridge, then:

(2) The user can turn on the light bridge by placing a box on a button next to it.

This solves the light bridge backtracking by requiring that (1) the user made it up to the hallway, and (2) maintains the need to have an extra box to get a light bridge, exactly as it is now. But it should be much less repetitive.

If possible, ideally I could combine both of your ideas with this one to greatly reduce the necessary resolve time of the puzzle.

Quote:
Btw, the part where you get the 3rd cube, and you're then forced to funnel yourself back to the beginning and drop down was a very nice touch. I just wish I hadn't fallen into that pit the first time I went in there and was like "Ooo, I wonder whats down that hall! fall WTF!"

Yeah, I specifically added a light in that tunnel hoping to make that pit obvious but instead I obviously failed. I'll fix that. Sorry you had to be the beta tester! (at least, that's the point of the Work In Progress section though)||

Quote:
This gave me an idea.... in the room with the emancipation grills and the cube on a platform, why not just replace those grilles with metal grates? I assume the idea behind them is to prevent the player from using the excursion funnel to go directly to the cube and grab it. Using grates would have the same effect, but not be confusing as to if the cube will be killed or not.

It would also have a better aesthetic if that area was sectioned off completely with grates with an actual door leading into it. It would further reinforce that you cant use the funnel to get to the cube, but that you have to use the gel on it.

Yes, these ideas would work. However, it represents a design paradigm that's a bit different, and I haven't decided which is better yet. I'd like your opinion:

opinion
||On one hand, I have the blue gel fall onto the ground in front of the portal surface in that room. This gives the player the false idea that they should try jumping through, and to focus on that gel on the ground. I could point the player in the right direction by adding a grille on the floor so that the gel does not remain there. This would point the player to think of something else ("why would he put gel here if i can't even use it on the floor?"). However, doing what I did, I am rewarding outside-the-box thinking.

The emancipation fields are the same way. At first it looks like you might be able to fling yourself quickly through the fields, sacrifice the portals, and get the box. Putting a grating instead would immediately kill this idea and again point the player in the right direction.

I personally like the the idea of giving the player wrong first impressions so that they grow accustomed to thinking of all of the possible uses of an item as they progress through the map. Good example? Holding the blue box in the reverse excursion funnel while doing other things. No one thinks of doing that immediately upon encountering an excursion funnel.

Or, do you think this map would benefit more from closing off wrong solutions to help the player more quickly reach a more fruitful outcome?||

No, closing off incorrect solutions and forcing the player to think in a more linear fashion would be too reminiscent of Portal 2. I liked those puzzles, but they don't have the element of creativity and logic required to solve your puzzles- The way you force a player to think beyond what is there and what is obvious, I think, is a very good thing. Of course, some might -want- things to be obvious, so an alternative map might be in order, but I honestly think it's best to leave solutions more open ended.

Right. My opinion is that there are plenty of maps that are more linear/direct and close off such solutions. Of course, I also realize that the player is not my enemy and I'm not trying to make it too trial-and-error based ("oh, look, a room with 1500 doors, 1500 buttons, and a crusher above every one.") is also no fun at all either.

That is correct, it is not. You can increase the difficulty of a map by using red herrings, but only if they are red herrings in the sense that the setup leads the player into thinking the solution is something else. Dud buttons would be annoying. You can increase difficulty by increasing the apparent complexity of a map (DUMP EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE) but that is just intimidating to the player. What you've done, as far as I can see, is increase the difficulty by making the puzzle an interconnecting one relying on elements from each chamber, using new elements or solutions unfamiliar to the player (which I love by the way), and leading the player to focus on the more obvious, (incorrect) solution. So far, all of these are completely valid methods to increase difficulty (pit nonwithstanding, though I can understand the reason for the pit) and lead the player to think hard. I honestly can't think of other ways you could increase the difficulty without being unfair to the player. Trial and error would be terrible, but I don't see any such elements right now.

In version 1.0 I used the trick of stacking the 3 cubes I already had to get the cube on the pedestal beneath the glass floor. I find the fact that you closed this alternative route off a bit disappointing, as having to deal with the bouncing cube covered in gel is annoying

Shane wrote:
In version 1.0 I used the trick of stacking the 3 cubes I already had to get the cube on the pedestal beneath the glass floor. I find the fact that you closed this alternative route off a bit disappointing, as having to deal with the bouncing cube covered in gel is annoying

I agree. However, people were throwing boxes at it and getting it way too early. Technically as long as it's restricted to being the 4th cube, pretty much any method should be legal.

Can you think of a way to make the current map allow for this possibility and still ensure that it's the 4th box? If so, I'd be happy to put that in. The more solutions the better, as long as they reward creativity.

Edit: wow, you played 1.0 Sorry to have put you through that!

Ruien wrote:
Quote:

This gave me an idea.... in the room with the emancipation grills and the cube on a platform, why not just replace those grilles with metal grates? I assume the idea behind them is to prevent the player from using the excursion funnel to go directly to the cube and grab it. Using grates would have the same effect, but not be confusing as to if the cube will be killed or not.

It would also have a better aesthetic if that area was sectioned off completely with grates with an actual door leading into it. It would further reinforce that you cant use the funnel to get to the cube, but that you have to use the gel on it.

Yes, these ideas would work. However, it represents a design paradigm that's a bit different, and I haven't decided which is better yet. I'd like your opinion:

opinion
||On one hand, I have the blue gel fall onto the ground in front of the portal surface in that room. This gives the player the false idea that they should try jumping through, and to focus on that gel on the ground. I could point the player in the right direction by adding a grille on the floor so that the gel does not remain there. This would point the player to think of something else ("why would he put gel here if i can't even use it on the floor?"). However, doing what I did, I am rewarding outside-the-box thinking.

The emancipation fields are the same way. At first it looks like you might be able to fling yourself quickly through the fields, sacrifice the portals, and get the box. Putting a grating instead would immediately kill this idea and again point the player in the right direction.

I personally like the the idea of giving the player wrong first impressions so that they grow accustomed to thinking of all of the possible uses of an item as they progress through the map. Good example? Holding the blue box in the reverse excursion funnel while doing other things. No one thinks of doing that immediately upon encountering an excursion funnel.

Or, do you think this map would benefit more from closing off wrong solutions to help the player more quickly reach a more fruitful outcome?||

Reply
||I do like the idea of giving wrong first impressions. I see where you were coming from with the fling/bounce solution, which I actually tried. Portaled up to the top then tried jumping off of the gel to the box. When I realized that I needed the gel to be further out from the wall to achieve this I thought of the funnel, THEN came to the realization of just pushing the gel to the box and having it jump off. So, the fact that you gave me the idea of bouncing over there led my train of thought to using the funnels to push the gel on it.

The only issue here is that if the player thinks of this, he also considers that theres emancipation grilles very close by that could fizzle his cube when it bounces around like crazy, which may falsely dissuade them from trying it. That is where your good idea has its downfall. I love misrepresenting things in order to catch people on a false assumption, but having the correct solution not seem feasible makes it very tedious.||

4th Cube
This is the part of the puzzle I despised. I knew I had to get the bouncy cube to the room with the 4th cube in it, but I had trouble travelling with the bouncy cube. I'd have to leave the cube in the starting room to make the portals, but when I'd come to get it I'd have to sit on the bridge and wait for it to cross my path. Once it even bounced out of the room and I just gave up there and re-loaded my save. It seems like the cage is meant to hold the bouncy cube, but how am I supposed to make the light bridge portals AND get the cube out of there when I need it?

Reply to Neoxx:

Quote:
The only issue here is that if the player thinks of this, he also considers that theres emancipation grilles very close by that could fizzle his cube when it bounces around like crazy, which may falsely dissuade them from trying it. That is where your good idea has its downfall. I love misrepresenting things in order to catch people on a false assumption, but having the correct solution not seem feasible makes it very tedious.

This is a good point. I tried to make the point clear that the e-fields would not fizzle boxes, but it is becoming clearer that this is not necessarily a good idea. Portal2 single player really should have had a "portal cleanser" but NOT "box fizzler" element that the user would be familiar with already. The portal cleanser has a lot of creative uses independent from the box fizzler, and the SDK makes it easy to create both. I wonder if I modify the color or something, I can make it more intuitive that these are not normal fizzlers. I intend to continue using the portal cleanser throughout my designs.

Quote:
This is the part of the puzzle I despised. I knew I had to get the bouncy cube to the room with the 4th cube in it, but I had trouble travelling with the bouncy cube. I'd have to leave the cube in the starting room to make the portals, but when I'd come to get it I'd have to sit on the bridge and wait for it to cross my path. Once it even bounced out of the room and I just gave up there and re-loaded my save.

4th box
This is another example of incorrect initial assumptions. I want the player to assume that they should be using the light bridge to cross the gap in the second room (just like how they crossed it the first time), but having a bouncy blue box makes that hard. So what's the real correct solution? To use the tractor beam instead of the light bridge for that same section. This is one of the most subtle outside-the-box-thinking elements that I was able to apply. Did you take a look at the Intended Solution to see how I did that part?

Quote:
It seems like the cage is meant to hold the bouncy cube, but how am I supposed to make the light bridge portals AND get the cube out of there when I need it?

solution
Since you would have used the tractor beam to conveniently get it to the pit to knock down the other box already, you can safely store it inside of this cage while doing other things, and then suck it out from the main room with the reverse tractor beam when you need it.

Amazing map, spent a while working it out and enjoyed every moment.

Keep up the good work

Magnifico, Muy buen trabajo.
Uno de los mejores mapas de la comunidad que he jugado.
Dif?cil pero l?gico.
Tarde 2 horas en resolverlo xD

La Prueba xD

http://imageshack.us/m/814/9071/spengineerv1200000.jpg

Un Saludo.

PD: Haz mas como este.

????????~~~ (I can speak Chinese but not Spanish)

But, I think you said you solved it in 2 hours. That's phenomenal! Way to go! =D

And I am very happy you liked it!

[ES]
Hola.

Dec?a, que era magnifico el mapa, un trabajo excelente.
?Eres Ingeniero?
Me gustar?a jugar a mas mapas tuyos.
Tienes un estilo interesante.
?Tienes pensado hacer m?s mapas?

Un Saludo.


[ENG (Traslation by Google xD)]

Hello.

I, said that the map was magnificent, an excellent job.
Are you an engineer?
I would like to play more maps yours.
You have an interesting style.
Do you plan to make more maps?

A greeting.

Thank you

Yes, I am an electrical engineer.

I am excited to make more maps after Engineer is finished.

[ESP]
Eh descargado la ultima versi?n de tu mapa y he visto muchos cambios visuales, el puzzle en base es el mismo y me alegro, solo decirte que el la versi?n 1.2.0 ya me pareci? definitiva... Puede estar mas bonito (Relativamente) pero no mejor.

Saludos.

PD: Espero pronto poder crear posts en esta secci?n (soy nuevo y no me lo permiten) y ense?arte mi mapa en desarrollo a ver que te parece.

[ENG by Google]

Hey downloaded the latest version of your map and have seen many visual changes, the puzzle is based on the same and I am glad to say that only version 1.2.0 and it seemed the end ... Can be more beautiful (relatively) but not better.

Greetings.

PS: I hope to soon be able to create threads in this section (I'm new and I do not allow it) and teach my map developing to see what you think.

Yes, Engineer is just about finished.

I will start a new map this month. I need to think of some new creative puzzle elements, and then think of the most interesting ways to put them together.

The next map will probably have two parts: First, some smaller chambers introducing some new fields I created. Then, a larger puzzle to put these pieces together.

[ESP]
A mi cuando se me permita subir un mapa a la Web ya te avisare. (sabes que hay que hacer para que te dejen subir mapas?)
Tengo muchas ideas pero no tengo experiencia.
He dejado a un lado un macro puzzle para aprender m?s, una vez sepa lo suficiente continuare con el desarrollo, ya te lo ense?are.
Por ultimo tengo una brillante idea para una campa?a o MOD con una buena historia.. pero para eso necesitaria ayuda, ?la tuya quizas? xDDDDD

Un Saludo.

[ENG by Google]
To me when I am allowed to upload a map on the Web and will notify you. (you know you need to do to let you upload maps?)
I have many ideas but I have no experience.
I left out a puzzle to learn more macro, once you know enough will continue with development, and what you teach.
Finally I have a brilliant idea for a campaign or MOD with a good story .. but it would need help, do your own maybe? xDDDDD

A greeting.

carlymx wrote:
To me when I am allowed to upload a map on the Web and will notify you. (you know you need to do to let you upload maps?)
I have many ideas but I have no experience.
I left out a puzzle to learn more macro, once you know enough will continue with development, and what you teach.
Finally I have a brilliant idea for a campaign or MOD with a good story .. but it would need help, do your own maybe? xDDDDD

I think you just need a few posts to make a map. I know I had less than 10 when I uploaded my map.

If you need more posts, test other people's maps. Then, make comments for them. People want to hear your ideas about their map -- both good and bad.

You said "I have many ideas but I have no experience." -- That's okay. Engineer was my first map. Just try to learn Hammer so you can make a simple puzzle. Then, keep adding to it to make it harder and bigger. When you feel it is ready, put it in the "WIP" (Work In Progress) section, and we will take a look at it and give you our ideas.

Making a story is very hard. People like msleeper and Omnicoder and many others with a lot of experience can do that, but I am not good enough to do it. I think you should first try making a puzzle. You can only make a story after you understand all of the simple things, like walls, and buttons, and doors, and triggers, and inputs/outputs.

This contest is very good for us. All of the people who enter the contest include their source VMF file, so you can look at it and see how they did things. These examples help a lot. This way, when you have a question in your map, you can go to see how someone else solved the same problem.

Such a clever map.
However, further indication is needed for rooms and halls.
I had at least 3 'what the hell, THAT was a room?' moments.

singateco wrote:
Such a clever map.
However, further indication is needed for rooms and halls.
I had at least 3 'what the hell, THAT was a room?' moments.

Thanks

However I don't understand what you mean here -- indication for rooms and halls? The entire map is one "chamber" with a few different rooms, but the separation between the rooms isn't important because you end up going between them many times (you don't "finish" one and then go to the next one).

If you can tell me what you mean by the "'what the hell, THAT was a room?' moments", I will do my best to fix the problem.

Sorry for my english, I'm just not good at it. (not my first language)

http://imageshack.us/f/101/32640684.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/20/49852167.jpg/

Those are not impossible to notice, but I found it hard to find them. (especially when room is massive and there is lot of things.. I didn't even look at that part of wall.)

Maybe I'm just use to Portal 2 style 'this is the solution' lighting..
Well, better lighting can only help.

Anyways, keep up the good work!

Ah, thanks for the screenshots! I never noticed that these were not very clear.

I can fix this. Thank you!