Valve are terrible mappers

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ChickenMobile
2,460 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
I just have to point out that Valve does a horrible job when it comes to brushwork, optimising and creating their levels, especially in the coop levels.

I decompiled most of their work for Portal 2 and noticed how HORRIBLE IT IS. There is overlapping textures everywhere, they ultimately refuse to optimise to the fullest quality possible and they even have floating models IN PLAIN SIGHT.

They even texture the brushes on the outside in a lot of the places. I don't know what they were thinking because this decreases performance, and they way the make up to this is by putting areaportals and hints everywhere. Hints/skip should be placed in the most ideal places in order to split the leafs well, rather than putting them everywhere so then it could work 'reasonably well'. If they had used 'nodraw' on every single face that is not visible by the player, the FPS would probably triple and people with worse computers might not have as much lag when it comes to rendering the models they absolutely spam everywhere.

I noticed that Valve usually keeps the textures aligned well, but only in parts that are snapped to the larger grid sizes. In the coop lobby, the wall behind the player spawn, there is a mis-aligned texture which could have been easily fixed by changing the texture x and y values both to 0. On the walls in the same area there are also textures that obviously do not make sense as they are cut half way through a panel-wall texture (i.e. mis-aligned as well) which makes the lights next to it seem plonked in.
Even on the roof of that area, they didn't bother taking two seconds to split a brush in order to make it look 10x better and changing the texture to something more reasonable, like a trim texture.
Mis-aligning textures just shows how rushed they might have been, rather than focusing on the quality of the map. Not only does it look terrible, but the fact that they have done this multiple times in PLAIN SIGHT is what gets me.

When it comes to overlapping textures, Valve just loves doing this. Usually it may be in spots that you cannot see (or is hard to see), but this, again, dramatically decreases performance as it is trying to decide which texture to render when they are in exactly the same area. I noticed that using instances wrong creates a lot of overlapping textures as Valve usually does not cover the outside of their instances with nodraw.
I know that the instances might be 'flexible' in the sense; but no-one is going to see the outside of a spawn dropper, or the opposite side of where you walk out from in the coop_spawn instance. Minimize the amount of faces rendered = better quality play.

I have noticed that Valve refuses to put player clip in obvious places to stop the player from reaching places that they shouldn't have. A good example of this is how some of the good Portal Speed runners find these mistakes and use the glitchy areas to take a short-cut through an area which should have been closed off. You know when you are not supposed to be somewhere because you can obviously see nodraw textures on blocks, and events get triggered wrongly/not at all.
Again, in the coop lobby, they haven't put clip on the holes in front of the 'arm' looking models so you can stand on these brushes and look behind them (of course there is a nodraw texture and you can see through the wall). I'm not saying you should put player clip everywhere, but in parts where the player can physically stand or stand near.

When I was playing in the lobby with a friend we noticed this: .
If they moved the model back 32 units or so it would be on the wall, and not floating. In fact even when you fall down and die in the hub you can see all the underneaths of the models. A 'fade' would be good here.

The only thing I can say that I like about Valve's work is the amount of automation when it comes to the scripts called. This is very productive and reduces the amount of entities placed in the map ten-fold.

Overall I give Valve a 1/5 for their dodgy, rushed work. If they paid their level designers more instead of hiring expensive actors for a few simple lines then surely it might be better quality. Then again, their work is really similar no matter what game you look at.

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Hober
1,180 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 4 minutes later
Software is never done, it's only shipped. The game ran acceptably on the 360 and the PS3, and that was their target. Playtesters stopped complaining about visual problems (I never noticed any). They considered that good enough.

I'm sure those mappers aren't thrilled about having to release this stuff, but that's life in commercial software.

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no00dylan
26 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 27 minutes later
You're right, they're terrible mappers. That's why I quit playing portal 2 within the first few maps, I just couldn't take it.

sarcasm self-test completed

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MasterLagger
1,695 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 1 hour later
These guys run a business, it's only natural of them to cut a few corners even if they don't like it.
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WinstonSmith
940 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 3 minutes later
About texturing the outside (void-facing) faces of brushes: I was under the impression that VBSP actually just eliminates the faces altogether, meaning that it doesn't really matter with what you texture them. Could be wrong, I remember a debate about that a while ago.
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kwp21 pitts
260 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 15 minutes later
This is some of the reasons I edit the instances
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Aldéz
221 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 1 hour later

WinstonSmith wrote:
About texturing the outside (void-facing) faces of brushes: I was under the impression that VBSP actually just eliminates the faces altogether, meaning that it doesn't really matter with what you texture them. Could be wrong, I remember a debate about that a while ago.

I don't know what is saved about the surfaces outside the world, but the geometry of the brushes is saved. At least you collide with them if you noclip yourself outside. Nevertheless, I doubt it matter what texture you put on the outside surfaces.

EDIT:
After reading this article, it seems that the brushes are indeed preserved, but the surface information isn't for surfaces facing the void. I just skimmed through it though, but as I guessed earlier, it appears to not matter what texture you put outside. Complex geomtry on the other hand...

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rellikpd
1,053 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 2 hours later
unless things have changed with the bsp compiler (and i doubt they have) thats the whole reason you have to worry about leaks. Anything that can NEVER be seen by the player, by ANY other way other than no-clip is NOT rendered. A lot of people prefer using "nodraw" on the outside, because it looks a little more professional, and allows you to get an idea of where/what you're working on, when zooming through the editor on a larger project.
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Dilbao
32 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 31 minutes later
I check a few decompiled maps by myself and saw the chaos in them. I wonder how they manage to debug when something goes wrong. I guess, they don't. They just leave it there if it doesn't affect game play.
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yohoat9
274 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 28 minutes later
I don't think they're terrible, but I do think they over complicate everything as much as they can. Instances are a really big waste of time IMO and there are so many unnecessary invisible brushes and stuff. I say all this because in Portal 1, the released chamber 05 vmf was so so so complicated, and I could make the chamber exactly as it looked and functioned without half of the crap valve put in it. Seriously, look at chamber 05!

[edit] actually it's chamber 09, file name confused me, lol.

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MrTwoVideoCards
584 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 1 hour later
Saying they are terrible is kind of a long stretch, but I am going to reveal some secrets to you guys about something that is probably going to blow your mind:

The Valve Developer community is all wrong.

98% of the content written on that site is mainly from modders and mappers out there, not working or employed by Valve. I'm bringing this up because the VDC is resposnsible for our community understanding of what works in the source engine, and what not to do/do make sure to do concepts.

Little modders/mappers out there have gone to test the unconventional, the insane, simply because they are told "don't do this, madness ensues".

Brush work colliding with each other isn't a huge deal. Textures not being aligned doesn't matter. there's no engine overhead or cost, or anything of that sort if you do things wrong. In fact non-conventional usages of most structural elements usually wins the day. I shipped both infinfling and redirecting redirection with overlapping brushes.

Someone up at valve once said something that got lost in the tubes of the internet, but he said exactly as so: "It doesn't matter how it looks like in hammer, as long as it works right and looks good in-game". And that is super, super true. If you go into all the shipped valve vmf's that is literally the case.

The editor is not equal to the way the engine works, and renders things. Which genrally is most peoples problem of understanding. There's no doubt that clean mapping is a good thing, however it isn't something you need to kill yourself over. Letting some shit just be "wrong or improper" isn't a big deal if everything else is pretty clean and optimized.

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MasterLagger
1,695 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 2 hours later
That didn't blow my mind... actually most of that stuff seems to be common sense to me. A couple things I didn't realize, but still it's common sense to me.
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ChickenMobile
2,460 Posts
Posted Jun 27, 2011
Replied 1 minutes later

yohoat9 wrote:
I don't think they're terrible, but I do think they over complicate everything as much as they can. Instances are a really big waste of time IMO and there are so many unnecessary invisible brushes and stuff. I say all this because in Portal 1, the released chamber 05 vmf was so so so complicated, and I could make the chamber exactly as it looked and functioned without half of the crap valve put in it. Seriously, look at chamber 05!

[edit] actually it's chamber 09, file name confused me, lol.

I find instances great in most circumstances, but they really need to optimise how they make them.
I noticed that in the light instances they have portal bumpers on them. In Portal 1 this would have been ok, because you needed portal bumpers otherwise the portal would open up half way on the edge of the white texture. In Portal 2 they fixed this with coding for the Portal gun itself and it never usually overlaps 'black' textures anyway.

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Aldéz
221 Posts
Posted Jun 28, 2011
Replied 17 hours later
I don't recall that one could place portals half-way over the metal surfaces. Portal bumpers are sadly still necessary if you want to place a portal when you aim near the edge of a portable surface. Try to place a portal on a 64x128 portable surface in the middle of a metal wall. Without a portal bumper, it's a bit trickier.
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iWork925
1,080 Posts
Posted Jun 28, 2011
Replied 7 hours later
Placement helper will fix that, and frankly should be used anyway.
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Aldéz
221 Posts
Posted Jun 29, 2011
Replied 3 hours later
On a small portable surface, yes, a placement helper is preferable to a bumper. It doesn't make much sense to use helpers on larger surfaces though. So again, bumpers are "necessary".
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ChickenMobile
2,460 Posts
Posted Jun 29, 2011
Replied 15 minutes later

Ald?z wrote:
On a small portable surface, yes, a placement helper is preferable to a bumper. It doesn't make much sense to use helpers on larger surfaces though. So again, bumpers are "necessary".

If you need a bumper then it would make sense to make them yourself, not to put it on the light instance and this is where I was getting at.

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iWork925
1,080 Posts
Posted Jun 29, 2011
Replied 1 hour later
Just made a small room with a large white surface meeting a large black surface, not portal placing problems. Also this situation is not addressed with bumpers in Valves maps. I think it is fine to have the two meet without bumpers. The same room with a small 64x128 white brush in the middle is difficult to place with out the bumper, but it doesnt glitch when you place it. Your argument is invalid.
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Aldéz
221 Posts
Posted Jun 29, 2011
Replied 8 hours later

chickenmobile wrote:
Ald?z wrote:

On a small portable surface, yes, a placement helper is preferable to a bumper. It doesn't make much sense to use helpers on larger surfaces though. So again, bumpers are "necessary".

If you need a bumper then it would make sense to make them yourself, not to put it on the light instance and this is where I was getting at.

Ah, true, although it can come in handy some times.

iWork925 wrote:
Just made a small room with a large white surface meeting a large black surface, not portal placing problems. Also this situation is not addressed with bumpers in Valves maps. I think it is fine to have the two meet without bumpers. The same room with a small 64x128 white brush in the middle is difficult to place with out the bumper, but it doesnt glitch when you place it. Your argument is invalid.

I made a room too and tested this. It's by far easier to place portals near the edges of portable surfaces in Portal 2. However, it isn't perfect, not even on larger surfaces, especially not in corners. The extra trouble of creating portal bumpers may not pay off most times though.

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iWork925
1,080 Posts
Posted Jun 30, 2011
Replied 11 hours later
ChickenMobile point out a glitch to me in the coop hub due to the lack of bumpers. So I retract my statement.